Interview with Heywood Gould

I read all kinds of things, not just cozy mysteries. So when I was at Reader’s Oasis Books in Quartzsite, AZ looking for something different to read out in the desert, I found a a book cover that caught my eye.

Corporation Freak by Heywood Gould.

For those of you that don’t know, Heywood Gould is the author of such famous movies as Fort Apache the Bronx, Streets of Gold, and Cocktail. Flipping through the book I wondered if the premise, that of a young guy hustling a major corporation by being hired as a consultant would even be possible these days.

But what was really funny, was that the day he started working at IBM was exactly 50 years ago. So for his Golden jubilee, as a 50 year anniversary is called, I thought I’d reach out to him and see what he had to say about the book, and see if he had any advice for a struggling author.

This year marks the 50th anniversary of your first day at IBM and what led to writing the book Corporation Freak. (March 20, 1968) For some people the choice of the word Freak in the title may be somewhat confusing, these days it could easily be the title of an Urban Romance, could you explain its context.

I was a fish out of water at IBM, almost an alien creature. After my first week the Area Manager gave me a name tag the size of a salad plate that said “VENDOR” in huge bold letters.”Wear this at all times ,” he said,”we don’t want anybody to think you’re an IBM employee.”

The more that I read books like Corporation Freak, personal stories from a time or place different than my own, the more I realize that despite the differences which people tend to focus on, people are really the same. Wherever, and whenever you go. Swap out their anxieties which seem relevant and important to them with our own today, shows not only how similar people are across the timespace, but also how trivial most of our concerns really are. How was the reception for the book when it was released and how did writing the book affect your growth as a writer?

This was the kind of book many of my contemporaries thought they could have written better. And were mad that I got there first. It was released in paperback, but did get a mention in the NY Times on its publication date. The publisher did mostly exploitation books so it didn’t get a wide distribution. A smattering of reviews in “alternate” papers, which in those days meant left wing and counter cultural. The Village Voice described me as an “aging hippy,” (I was twenty-six) but gave it a grudging rave.

A few days after pub I walked into Brentanos, which was then the pre eminent book chain in the city to check the sales. “Funny thing,” the clerk said. “Some guy came in and bought every copy off the shelf. Made us go downstairs and pick up the extras.” I guessed it was someone from IBM. I did a couple of interviews with radio stringers. Don’t know if they got on. In those days you had no way of knowing if your fame was spreading. Or not. When I asked my editor for a royalty statement she laughed…”You sold zero, okay?” A few weeks after pub I got a phone call from two guys who were ranting about the coming Revolution and asked me to join forces. I thought it was the Weathermen, but wiser friends said it was probably FBI trying to get info out of me. Over the years I’ve gotten mentions here and there. Corporate types, of all people, say, it has the best descriptions of staff meetings they’ve ever read so I guess you’re right: people, “are similar across the timespace.”

If you could go back to that guy that walked into the IBM offices in 1968 and give him some advice, what would it be?

Make a plan. I never had one. Still don’t.

When you think back to that young man, how do you think he would fit in our current time?

Corporations rule the world and they’re as sensitive as the French royalty. Today that guy (me) would be sued for violating a confidentiality agreement. PR trolls working for IBM would blacken the book and write snide posts about him. Pub firms that are controlled by conglomerates wouldn’t hire me. Come to think of it I probably wouldn’t even be hired in the first place. I’d never survive the vetting process.

From what I have read about your time between IBM and the success of Cocktail, it seems very much like a rough patch. Is there anything from that time that you would say to someone going through something similar?

Thornton Wilder said no writer should have a writing day job because you wrote yourself out from nine to five and didn’t have the energy to do your own stuff at night. I quit the NY Post to write fiction. Then quit a film strip editing job and took non-writing day jobs—cab driving, floor polishing and finally bartending—to have more time for writing. Actually became a bartender soon after the pub of CF and stayed at it for eleven years, long after it stopped being fun. I wasn’t in the “doping, drinking/never thinking/of tomorrow”crowd. Saw too many talented people hit bottom and stay there so I tried to be disciplined. This meant only going to one after hours joint, not two. Only drinking cognac because that only made you crazy, not sick. I eschewed coke for meth, which was better for writing. But then I saw an emaciated bum in a store window and realized it was me so I quit speeding. Wrote four or five hack books, magazine pieces and my first novel while bartending. Also the first draft of “Fort Apache the Bronx” and the rewrite of “Rolling Thunder,” until I finally had enough money to quit and go into freelancing full time.

In Corporation Freak you say that a consultant is, “an individual who has had enough training and experience in a given field to know that most of his training and experience is worth nothing.” In your experience could we swap out the word consultant with writer?

I think experience has actually made me a better writer. I’ve learned what works. What pitfalls to avoid. I’m learning every day.

I’m curious if the program you were brought into IBM to consult on, in the book Corporation Freak, had a writer option at the end as a job for any of the students? If you were now to design a course to lay out for a prospective writer what would you program the machine to say?

We did animated descriptions of every job we covered. Students and returning vets could see what the job entailed, what skills were needed, how much money you could expect to make, prospects for advancement, etc. Even included an aptitude test so they could see if they were suited for the job and academic/vocational requirements.
Also did a sixteen millimeter doc. on how to use the system. My first movie. We thought it was a worthwhile effort.

There would be a different program for different kinds of writing–journalism, fiction dramatic, technical, etc. The universal requirement would be to read and see and experience as such as you could. And to see writing as a learning experience.

So young writers, Make a Plan and Look at writing as a learning experience.

Heywood Gould has a much more recent book out, Greenlight for Murder, check it out on Amazon. He also has a book that I am hoping will be out soon called Drafted, about his seven year fruitless struggle to dodge in the draft in the ’60’s.

What’s your writing plan?

Do you have one?